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May 12, 2008

The great PR clash on ConservativeHome

Daniel Kawczynski, MP for Shrewsbury & Atcham, says the Conservatives should abolish Proportional Representation for GLA and EU elections. He has written an article attempting to point out all the flaws with the London elections and setting out the case for reverting back to FPTP for these elections. Read his article. Then read my report of the London elections. Even once you have taken away the politics and the spin from both of us, I think you will find the reality and the numbers conflict somewhat with his reading of events. The difference in people casting good votes in the two GLA ballots was actually only 0.06% - so statistically and in practice people had no problem comprehending different systems. In fact over 6000 more people chose to vote in the London-wide ballot than in the constituency section. There are many other such stats in this report. On many levels (including how the non-partisan Electoral Commission / London Elects ran the election and designed the ballots) his comparison with Scotland does not add up. And then there are the more 'political' / subjective points; such as when only 34% voted for the Conservatives in the list section, it does not quite fit with his perception of being "robbed of a deserved majority on the Assembly."

Anyway, I am not going to go through his piece line-by-line. Others have done so. And there are a few good points and observations in what he writes. I hope to get a chance to discuss them more with him in person at a later date. But for now I'll leave it to fellow bloggers and ConservativeHome followers, who ably contributed many great points and put the case for PR - including the Conservative case for PR - in commenting on Daniel's blog:

“I think there's a case that there's too many different systems, but lots of countries have PR, and it doesn't create confusion. Are the Brits too stupid to handle a simple voting system. ‘Tories plan to scrap fairer voting system’... that sounds like a good plan. I'm against PR for Westminster but can see its merits in local elections.” Steve R
“FPTP is one of the most significant reasons that decreases voter engagement. There are two fundamental weaknesses of this system: 1) It tends to create governments from a minority of the vote with overwhelming executive power and hegemony over the legislature. 2) It tends to create parties that gravitate to the so-called centre ground, too timid to speak about the most contentious issues of the day: the EU and immigration. All this does is enable government by a remote elite that just because they win through the FPTP system believe that they have a unanimous mandate to do as they wish despite actually having a minority of the vote. A blanked form of PR is certainly not the answer but we desperately need to create a system that vents these single issues into the national debate through elected representatives.” WitanSpeaker (blog)
“I presume you think British people are too thick to deal with PR? Every other European country manages it. Why not the British? …. . Most of the electorate can't name their elected representative regardless of the voting system. … When we were the only European country using FPTP the Labour Party won a disproportionate number of seats which gave the Socialist grouping an unfair majority. … You say that ‘it is significant that hard working Conservative candidates did well in this vote’ but actually the Labour Party gained a GLA seat from the Tories under FPTP. Daniel Kawczynski MP, who are you to say that supporters of other parties do not deserve to be represented on elected bodies. FPTP only works if you only have 2 parties. Therein lies its fundamental flaw. We have a multi party system whether you like it or not. Every vote must have a value. Most constituencies are considered safe and it simply isn't worth voting in a tory or labour stronghold. It seems you think that every other european country has got it wrong. I don't see the rest of the world trying to follow the FPTP system. I wonder why!” The Silent Majority
“How is it that every other EU member state can work PR fine, but you guys have such a problem? The Tories were not the "overwhelming will" of the people of London. When Londoners could vote using PR, without fear of a wasted voted,the Tories got 35% of the vote. Admittedly, the New Labour penchant for having so many different electoral systems is ridiculous, but all that means is that you should use the British-designed system used in Ireland, STV, for everything. It gives you clear constituency links, a wider choice for voters, and is fair. We'll even come over and show you how it works! Admittedly, it does assume that voters can count. Is that the problem?” Jason O'Mahony
“PR saved the tories in Wales and Scotland from being wiped out and an irrelevance. The current Tory fightback uder Cameron and the big poll leads we are all so happy about would not have been possible if it wasn't for PR in Wales and Scotland.” Alex Agius
“One Vote must = One Value. Under FPTP millions of peoples votes do not count. Millions of people do not bother to vote because they realise their votes don't count. I think Daniel just believes the Conservatives will have a narrow party advantage using FPTP. You shouldn't be so tribal. PR means everyone’s vote counts for something and means all views are represented. That is Democracy. Daniel why are you so afraid?” Isabella Biston
“I personally think that an element of PR would really help at local council level. For most seats there should be 1 councillor elected on a first past the post system to maintain the community link. There should then be a PR list system. This has two advantages. Firstly, parties with signficant votes council wide get some representation while they might miss out on FPTP. Secondly, the parties can put key potential council members on their list. So often excellent potential councillors are not elected because they lose in an indvidual seat on the FPTP basis. It would also give a greater opportunity for talented individuals to serve on the council. It would broaden the intake of councillors.” Simon Mallett
“PR gives every vote a value so politicians have to fight for every single vote. Not just a few in marginal constituencies. PR neither favours the Left or the Right. It favours the people.” Billy Trouble
“I actually rather like the Mayoral/GLA election system. It gives the voter the chance to more freely express their viewpoint. For example, a Labour-leaning voter who was not enamoured with Livingstone but wanted to block Boris at all costs had the ability to use their first preference to register support for a cause they support by voting Green or BNP or whatever, and then giving their second preference to Livingstone. The GLA list vote can be used in the same way, to support a minority party at the same time as voting for your usual Con, Lab or LD choice in the constituency ballot. I think it is a very welcome development that smaller parties such as Greens, UKIP and BNP are able to gain some representation.” H.Hemmelig
“Having read all the comments above I would say those on the side of PR have won the debate. Daniel Kawczynski MP, you would appear to be behind the curve on this one. I do hope you take notice of these comments and open your mind to the possibilities PR offers.” Tiffany Dangerfield
“’PR’ is a quality which electoral systems can be said to have. It is not an electoral system. List systems have many of the problems Daniel and other posters describe, but others do not, and nor do they break the constituency link. Multi-member constituencies and STV is the way to go. Churchill realised this. But Conservatives today refuse to see the ludicrous imbalance of power which FPTP creates, just because they hope one day to be on the up side of that imbalance.” Andy Hinton (blog)

Plus of course Charles Tannock MEP's defence of PR, blogged already here.

Posted by malcolmclark on May 12, 2008

Comments

Nothing of note in draft Queen's speech. Another white paper on Lord's reform (yawn). Brown is doomed.

Posted by: Andrew Kitching at May 14, 2008 04:18 PM

I was one of those 6000 Londoners. The "area" seat was rock-safe Tory, so why bother to vote in it.

By the way, is Boris a member of the First Past the Post Group?

Posted by: Innocent Abroad at May 22, 2008 11:27 AM

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